Takeaways:

• Darius Garland’s growth and performance will be crucial for the success of the Cleveland Cavaliers this season.
• Garland’s role as the point guard and his ability to facilitate and set the table for Donovan Mitchell is important for the team’s offense.
• Garland struggled last season due to injuries and inconsistent play, but there is optimism for a bounce-back season.
• Garland’s performance in the playoffs will be a key factor in determining his value and impact on the team.

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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Ethan Sands

What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. And today, I’m joined by Jimmy Watkins, one of the best columnists in the building, in the business, and he’s going to talk to us a little bit about the Cavs while he’s been doing some heavy duty Browns coverage over the last couple of weeks.

Obviously you guys know Chris is out doing some vacay getting some much -needed time off I will be taking some time off in the next week or so But we’re gonna do some pods here to make sure that you guys still have something to listen to Throughout the week the next coming weeks Jimmy. How you doing? Welcome back. It’s been a minute since you’ve been on the pod

Jimmy Watkins (00:51.43)

Yeah, I’ve been getting my vacay on this summer as well. It’s good to be with you, Ethan. It’s so crazy for our guy Chris, who, Chris, I hope you’re not listening to this podcast. I hope you are. I hope that you’re not allowed to say Cleveland .com while you’re in vacay. There’s really the NBA, MBAs all the time. It’s a 12 month league basically at this point. It just feels like the Cavs went Cancun like four months ago, three months ago and

Chris isn’t going now, it’s a cruel world.

Ethan Sands (01:25.558)

It’s crazy to think about also because like when the season ends and then we have to get into all of the different trade talks, the off season moves and we’re both just sitting here thinking like, hmm, are they gonna do something? Are they not gonna do something? And it’s not like we can’t just not be paying attention. Cause if something drops at the bottom of a hat, you gotta go ahead and just start writing it up wherever you are.

I remember when I first got into this business, I had to write a breaking news story when I was in a barber chair trying to get a haircut before going to a game. So that’s just me over here trying to panic on my first year of the beat. And this is my first summer ever like during covering anything that I’ve ever done. And I’m like, what is an off season? So it’s definitely interesting to see that. And I remember when I looked at the schedule for what we had planned coming up, it was like,

Chris is off from August 19th until, and I was like, until when? And it’s so well deserved and I’m glad that he’s getting his time off. And yeah, Jimmy, you’re probably right. You shouldn’t be able to say cleveland .com or the Cavs or anything for the next couple of weeks until we get into training camp preseason, all of those things, especially media day, which I talked about on the last podcast. But Jimmy, man.

Jimmy Watkins (02:43.952)

Block basketball reference on this man’s computer. Block it.

Ethan Sands (02:49.846)

Like how you mute stuff on Twitter or ex formally Twitter, man, you got to block all the accounts and everything. I’m probably blocked on social media, but, now I think we wanted to get into a different conversation today, right? Yesterday or on a previous podcast, I talked about Donovan Mitchell. I talked about what he’s got going on, where he stands in the Eastern conference in the NBA when it comes to shooting guards, but.

Jimmy Watkins (02:52.624)

That’s right.

Put the child lock on it.

Ethan Sands (03:19.468)

I want to continue going through that little process when it comes to the core four. So the next person on my docket is Darius Garland. A lot of things have been going on with Darius this summer, especially when it comes to trade talks and all of those things. But when he talked to Chris during summer league, he kind of cleared all of those things up when he said that he didn’t want to be traded and the rumors of him wanting to be traded if Donovan Mitchell signed an extension were simply rumors. So.

When that happened, it was basically like, OK, well, I guess he’s done with trade talks. And the Cleveland Cavaliers decided to do exactly the opposite of trading him, but build consistently around him. Jared Allen, Evan Mobley, Donovan Mitchell, all signed extensions this off season. Jimmy, are you excited for this core four to be in year three of its existence?

Jimmy Watkins (04:11.884)

excited to see what a new hand at the controls can do for it. I’m excited about the, I’m excited about the continuity that the Cavs have because something changed. Like I think whether it was JB or whether it was one of the core four having to go, something had to, the snow globe had to be shaken a little bit here. So I think that I’m intrigued to see

How Kenny Atkinson rearranges the chess pieces on this board, because I think one playoff series win in two years for the players that these guys are now. And particularly, like you look back, if Evan Mobley realizes a fingertip of his potential, like you look back on this team had those four guys and they won one playoff series in two years. Like that’s a hard, that’s the talent.

not meshing together the right way. That’s the sum of the parts equaling less than the whole analogy that I always screw up. I’m still thinking if I said that the right way, people know what I mean, right? I’m excited to see what the next step, what a different step can look like for that crew.

Ethan Sands (05:29.878)

Right. And as you mentioned, Kenny Atkinson is that new hand at the wheel, right? Because he is now the new head coach of the Cleveland Cavaliers. And we talked a little bit about it before, but the schedule came out and the first team that they play at home, the Cleveland Cavaliers get the host, the Detroit Pistons, Jamie Bickerstav. I mean, that’s how you set it up, right? That’s the NBA writing their narratives, their storylines, allowing them time to come unfold. But.

I wrote an article for cleveland .com today that was based on Darius Garland being the catalyst for this team to take it to the next step because we’ve heard that Evan Mitchell is the X factor. Evan Mobley, if he’s not playing to an all -star best player in the team caliber that this team can’t go. To me, all of those things may be true, but it cannot start without Darius Garland when it comes to the construction of this roster, of this lineup, right? Because if he’s the point guard,

When we understand that Donovan Mitchell is better suited as a shooting guard in this league, he’s better suited to play off the ball and be able to create his own shot when it comes to those kinds of things. Garland being able to facilitate and open and set the table for him is very helpful when it comes to looks, when it comes to matchups, all those different kinds of things. So the importance of Darius Garland is going to be

very vast when it comes to this season because of his role and his importance. But is he going to be able to step up? We understand last season was not the year for Darius Garland. He had to go through a fractured jaw and the loss of a family member that very much affected him when it came to his mental and it came to its physical aspect of his game. He lost 12 pounds in a month and it ended up being one of the seasons that kind of he’s got to remember.

going into this next year. averaged 18 points, six and a half assists, and 3 .1 turnovers per game while shooting 44 .6 % from the field and 37 .1 % from three point range. And nearly all of those stats were worse than his previous two seasons. So Jimmy, when it comes to the importance of Darius Garland and helping this team get further than the Eastern Conference Semi -finals and –

Ethan Sands (07:41.698)

to the NBA finals, Eastern Conference finals, all of those different things that this team wants to do. Where do you find the things that he can get better at and what you expect from Darius going into this next season?

Jimmy Watkins (07:57.722)

I mean, the health thing is first and foremost, right? Him getting back to his normal playing weight and getting back to the mentality required to be the player that the Cavs need him to be. That’s the point guard part of it to some degree, right? Like to create open shots for other people, you have to dribble past the guy in front of you. have to get to, most often, to two feet in the paint, at least one foot in the paint. Make someone help.

Make someone who’s standing on the perimeter step inside the key and get in front of you, right? We want to see that. I’m very confident that that’s, that will come back. mean, like we’re talking about a guy that has played, but played a certain way his entire life, right? That’s this, that’s just rebuilding habits. And I think part of it was last year, Darius trying to make this happen on the fly while the Cavs are.

While he’s coming back from this broken jaw, very soon after that, the Cavs are in a weird swoon and it’s like, what’s going on here? This team just put together one of the best six week stretches that the league saw last year. And now it was easy to put blame on Darius as he was trying to find his way while the team was struggling. I think that part will honestly kind of take care of itself. I’m really not that concerned about Darius Garland as a decision maker.

a ball handler, a point guard. The funny thing is, for this team constructed this way to get to conference semi -finals, the finals, whatever you think its ceiling is, particularly next year, like we’re talking about right now, what the Cavs really need to do is for Darius to find comfort as a scorer. It feels to me, you mentioned Donovan Mitchell, he’s as a shooting guard.

Technically, yes, Donovan Mitchell is more of a shooting guard than a point guard by player archetype. He’s a scorer more than he’s a passer. He’s your modern superstar volume scorer. He also just has the ball a lot. He’s had a, I need to get this root beer cap out of my face or I will keep playing with it. He’s had a, other than his, had a rookie year, his rookie year, his usage rate was 29 .1%.

Jimmy Watkins (10:22.214)

Every year since then has been at least 30, which is just like, I like we get caught up in labeling guys with positions. Point guard, primary ball handler, guy who does stuff with the ball a lot is kind of what both of these guys are, right? They do different things with the ball. Darius is a better passer than Donovan. Donovan’s a better scorer than Darius. They do different things, but they both like having ball in hand, right? And it seems to me…

It’s interesting you bring up the trade rumors. feel like wherever those came from, part of that desire from Darius’s camp, Darius’s agency, again, whoever, to put that out there, that Darius wanted to be traded. I think part of the motivation behind that was they noticed that Darius was having trouble adjusting to being the other guy that has the ball all the time.

sometimes. So run that back for the, those who are confused, having trouble being the other guy that has the ball all the time. Sometimes Donovan is the primary guy. Darius is secondary. I think you see that in the playoffs. think like basketball is such a rhythm sport that Donovan, Donovan can’t doesn’t have this issue because he’s the head of the snake, right? Like Donovan says, give me the ball. You give him the ball.

His rhythm is what he wants it to be, he dictates. When you’re a guy like Darius who spent a couple years being that guy, he was the Donovan of the rebuilding calves, and then it becomes, now you’re that guy when I say you’re that guy. Like Donovan Mitchell tries a few dribble moves, doesn’t get the shot he wants, shot clock’s winding down, he just throws the ball, Darius said, okay, now you do some stuff. That’s a tough adjustment to make. And so I really, I think that’s…

That’s something that they have to work on together. It’s something I think Darius needs to be more comfortable with letting Donovan dictate his rhythm to some degree, not in the way that a traditional point guard would where, you he gets you open shots or anything like understanding that you just need to be able to flip this on off switch as a score a little bit more often and a little bit more fluidly. And then I think part of it is just maybe this is where Kenny can help, right? Maybe that he can get them.

Jimmy Watkins (12:51.002)

more to be more communicative to do to run certain styles of more egalitarian offense where even if if Darius isn’t shooting the ball on a Donovan possession you’re getting more touch and JB did some of this stuff too. I don’t want to discredit JB but just like new wrinkles new wrinkles that have Darius Garland ready to ready to attack at any given moment you know what I mean he doesn’t have to feel like a

a surprise or like he’s creating a shot out of nothing when he gets the ball in his hands. And then part of it just comes with reps, right? we get, I think it gets overlooked last year, how disjointed their development was in last season’s arc because of Darius’ broken jaw, because Donovan was in and out of the lineup the second half of the season. Then you look up, you guys have been kind of taking turns filling in for each other the entire season.

Haven’t had a ton of time to mesh together the way you wanted to. And now it’s the playoffs. We have to be doing this at the highest level possible. That’s a lot. It’s a mixture of those things. It’s Darius getting back to normal in the way that we know he can with the recovery from the broken jaw. I think it’s him just kind of having to adjust to life as a 1B star, but next to Donovan Mitchell. And then it’s both of them kind of having to meet each other in the middle and just get more time out.

Ethan Sands (14:21.782)

And Jimmy, you mentioned something that I wanted to touch on because in my article, I talked about Darius being the head of the snake because he’s bringing the ball up. Right. And you’re absolutely right that Donovan Mitchell is the alpha of this team. But I feel like when it comes to being the head of the snake, even Jay, you bigger sad talked about it last season that maybe it’s potentially different in this year, but Darius runs the offense, right? When he brings the ball up, he’s going to be able to give it off to Donovan Mitchell. Whenever he sees fit, if he sees a matchup, they’re going to run a play.

for Donovan to get him the ball and he’s then gonna be able to do his thing. But when the ball comes off for a rebound, people are looking for Darius, looking for Donovan, majority looking for Darius to push the pace and get it up the floor while Donovan’s already running up. So I think that the head of the snake for this team has gotta be Darius Garland if they wanna be able to grow. And absolutely, you’re absolutely correct when you talk about how those two need to mesh more when it comes to give and take.

when it comes to being able to figure out who needs to go at each certain moment. And that comes with reps and you mentioned how they were out certain different times. But I also think there was a uncomfortability for Darius Garland last season when it came to playing in the body that he was currently at, because like we said, he’s, he lost 12 pounds. He was trying to come back. He was playing in the system that had changed since he had been gone, all this other stuff. and also just

being able to play and know that you are a guy that can get to the basket with all the dribble moves, hesitations that you have, but instead of finishing at the rim, he was fading away from the rim because he had just got his face broken when going through the basket against a bigger defender than him. Those are all mental things as well that we can’t quantify when it comes to his development and also his growth throughout the season. When it comes to, for me, is

All the videos that are getting posted on social media, Darius Garlet, what is from his camp, his coaches, by himself, whatever, whatever workouts he’s been gotten going on, he looks stronger. He looks more physical. He looks more just confident. And that could be because you’re in a gym with guys that you played with your whole life or whatever it may be. But the latest video that I’m talking about, Jimmy, is him doing a windmill at the end of a workout.

Ethan Sands (16:40.086)

with a player that plays for the Portland Trail Blazers. And to me, it wasn’t the windmill that caught my eye, right? There’s not a lot of scenarios where we’re going to be seeing Darius Garland jam a windmill in the season in an in -game scenario. But he was able to get up his vertical. I don’t think I’ve ever seen him do a windmill even in warmups or whatever it may be. So that’s an added vertical. That’s an added strength boost. That’s an added confidence boost.

to be doing all of these things, not to mention after a grueling workout that had him sweating, had him drenched to the point where you could see him glistening and all those different things. I just think it’s important to know how his body is going to be able to deal with an NBA season depending on what his weight is, depending on what his body style is and all those different things. Also for when it comes to confidence.

He, if he’s a little stronger, a little bit burlier than he was last year, he’s going to be more confident to go to the rim, go to the rack against these bigger defenders because he’s like, I can bump with these guys a little bit more. Not to mention when we talk about the weight loss, Imani Bates put on 26 pounds this past season, past off season, right? He went from 170 to 196, whatever it may be. In the one year that he’s been in the NBA, he’s added 26 pounds, whatever timeline that is. That

196 was reportedly or is reportedly just four pounds heavier than the starting weight of what Darius Garland was playing at. There’s a six inch difference between the two players, right? If you’re telling me that Darius Garland has put on more muscle mass and even if it’s not more weight, that’s gonna be a big difference when it comes to playing and we’ve already seen it with the Manny. Why would that not also translate with Darius Garland? So for me, Jimmy,

How important do you think, all right, what do you feel like is gonna impact his growth when it comes to just being able to get downhill, being able to stay twitchy, be able to play his game and those kinds of things when it comes to this next season?

Jimmy Watkins (18:44.614)

It’s strength and reps for me because I mean, it’s funny you mentioned the empty, the open gym runs that he’s posted on Instagram. On the one hand, I am basically invested zero stock into sizzle reel season. You Ben Simmons can, Ben Simmons is a 48 three point percentage at LA fitness, right?

On the other hand, I’m just really impressed by some of the things that these guys can do when they’re not around like NBA defenses. You know what I mean? Like Darius Garland doing a windmill, never thought that even entered my mind before. Like he’s decidedly a below the rim player. I saw, what did I say? I’m trying to remember who sizzle reel was. I saw Deandre Jordan like spotting up for three, like in a pickup game the other day on the internet.

It’s crazy how like take how much better you think NBA players are than the average person at basketball multiply it by 25. And you’re probably still coming up short. That part is incredible. But yeah, I think the strength will help getting back to your playing weight will help for Darius being able to throw a shoulder and the guys will help. I think to your point, it’s just kind of peace of mind. Like having being back at your normal playing weight. That means you don’t, you’re not thinking about, you know, stepping on a scale every day. You don’t.

That thought, you’re 10 pounds under weight, every time you step on a scale, you are thinking about how much lighter you are. And you’re thinking about how that affects you in what you might do with the drives. And that’s just time, time and reps, right? You get hit in the face. I don’t care what you do. If you get hit in the face, you’re gonna be a little twitchy. Like if someone punches you, and then a couple of days later, that same person fake punches you, you’re gonna flinch.

Darius Garland just happened to hurt his face doing something that he does 30 times a game. And that’s gonna take a while to get back from. So I think, again, Darius Garland, like the correlation between Darius Garland doing a windmill dunk on Instagram and Darius Garland returning to all -star form, pretty weak. But generally, the news that he’s put the weight back on and just playing basketball generally.

Jimmy Watkins (21:03.31)

I think will help a good deal, even if there probably still will be something of an adjustment to NBA’s like official preseason, even regular season basketball again, because it’s a different game out there.

Ethan Sands (21:20.278)

Yeah. And I also think like Darius Garland, when we would talk to him, he didn’t say he was back to a hundred percent after he came back from his injury. He’d never said he was back to a hundred percent. He never said he was fully healthy. We asked him in March, if he was back to a hundred percent. He said, no, we went to the playoffs and then he injured his back. Right. So that was a different injury that he was dealing with, that he was using the heating pad, sitting on an adjusted chair, all those different things. So

Him getting back to normal playing size, feel, comfortability, those are big things when it comes to a player that had been injured for a majority, if not all of last year. And then it also talks about the disrespect that he’s gotten this off season, the different things that people have said about him around the league, how he’s not, how he was, whatever, the media, whatever, national media, all these different things.

And then it feels like he’s a kind of, it feels like Darius Garland has always been the type of guy, he’s always been like, I’m not running from smoke. I’m not going to go away from anything. I’m gonna prove people wrong or prove myself right. One of the two. And it feels like that’s been the off season mentality for him to get back to where he feels like he’s comfortable to be an all star caliber player. And if all of the talk, all the chatter, all the trade rumors, whatever, wasn’t enough to get

Under Darius Garland skin or whatever. I feel like NBA 2k might have And Jimmy we’re talking about a game right and all the things that these players take stock in a video game might not be the biggest thing but Darius Garland was ranked 75th overall in the NBA 2k 25 game rated an 82 in the game

He’s also been known to be an 87, 86 over the last two years in the games. And it just feels like the guys that he’s still in the same realm with or are ranked a little bit higher, even if it’s just four or five places ahead of him, do not either have the same upside or do not have the same offensive potential as Darius Garland. Because we understand Darius is gonna be 25 this year, he’s 24 right now.

Ethan Sands (23:45.026)

There’s guys like Jalen Suggs and Alex Caruso who are on this list ahead of him. Jalen Suggs is someone who he considers to be a little brother to him, right? And I don’t know about you and I don’t have a little brother, but I wouldn’t want my little brother being rated higher than me on a video game. Simply put, that’s not how it’s going to fly. And then Alex Caruso is also known more so as a defensive player than offensive player. So I didn’t want to run through some of these like numbers to compare them to them and

Get your take on what you think about this entire situation because obviously we know it was a down year for Darius Garland. I mentioned his stats earlier 18, 6 .5 assists, 2 .7 rebounds, all those different things. Jaylen Suggs average 12 .6 points per game and 2 .7 assists, right? Alex Caruso 10 .1 points per game, 3 .5 assists per game. Okay. So these numbers are not even comparable

to a guy that we felt went from all -star caliber to a player that wasn’t even on the radar of most teams because he was playing himself off the court. But Darius Garland, even though he’s not a defensive player like Jalen Suggs and Alex Caruso who made the NBA second team defensive team, that he still has upside, he still has potential.

Jimmy, what do you think about this whole entire situation? Did you take it more as disrespectful? Do you think it’s motivation? What is on your mind?

Jimmy Watkins (25:22.316)

I think it’s like kind of a reflection of how far Darius Garland’s value fell over the last year. I don’t know exactly how NBA 2K comprises their ratings of guys, but I know a lot of research goes into it. if you were to compare, if you were to ask, if we do the…

NBA GM server that they do at the beginning of every year and we asked them to rank the top 100 players Going in the next season. I don’t think Darius Garland will be 75th. I Don’t think he’d be like top 20. I don’t think he’d be top 30. Like this is I think this is a guy who Had a really high approval rating coming at like entering the partnership with Donovan Mitchell and even Coming out of that Knicks series, which he did not play very well in

We were willing to wipe the slate clean. That’s your first playoff appearance. All good. Last year he has the up and down inconsistent regular season and then playoff time. Number one, it’s the most visible time for the league. It’s when the most people are watching. Number two, it’s the time when we care the least about excuses. And I think there’s a…

A thin line between excuses and reasons. Darius Garland had legitimate reasons for underperforming during the second half of last season and into the playoffs. He mentioned the back injury that he suffered against Orlando. Those don’t go away. But it’s just like the dude had three 20 point games in the playoffs and seven games with 14 or fewer. That just ain’t cotton at man. And I, again,

I know he’s more of a point guard type, but on this team, you have to be the co -engine of the offense with Donovan Mitchell. If Donovan doesn’t have it or defenses are showing him a ton of attention, you got to go for 35. You just do. And he wasn’t doing that often enough. And I think the 2K rating is maybe not the most accurate reflection, but it is a reflection of what happens when you have a really inconsistent season and then follow it up with kind of a dud playoff run.

Jimmy Watkins (27:36.326)

The Cavs can barely call last season a success. We often forget, I feel like we are one half away from this franchise being in Defcon 5. Everything’s on fire. Everything’s on fire if they lose that Orlando game seven at home. Darius Garland did not play well in that game. So it’s a good thing for the Cavs and for Darius Garland that that’s not where the season ended. And.

I think this explains a lot, honestly. As much as video games are viewed as silly by many people and the ratings even sillier, players definitely care about this stuff. there’s something real happening there. There’s something real with the idea that Darius Garland was X to enter last season and now he’s Y to enter this season. Again, I don’t think it’s…

maybe the 75th best player, I wouldn’t take Jalen Suggs or Alex Caruso over Darius Garland, particularly not if I’m starting a team. Like Darius Garland can run, can be a foundational piece. I still believe he can be a foundational piece for a good basketball team. Alex Caruso, Jalen Suggs are gonna top out at really nice role players. There’s like just completely different stratospheres of basketball player. But he’s…

He’s certainly taken a hit reputationally and this 2k rating, while a little silly and probably off base a tad, is a reflection of that.

Ethan Sands (29:12.248)

Jimmy, I think you’re absolutely right. And the first thing that you mentioned that is the most important is the playoffs, right? Because this is a playoff contending team. Cleveland Cavaliers are not satisfied with being a play -in team. They’re not satisfied with being a first round, and not even satisfied now with being a second round team. They are satisfied with being a Eastern Conference Finals, NBA Finals team. That’s where Donovan Mitchell wants to take this team. That’s where they want to go, right? And they’re trying to build a roster to do that.

Darius Garland has to play up to that standard. Darius Garland has to play up to his standard that we’ve seen from him, right? It’s not like it’s just gone away. It’s not like this is a completely different dude. Darius Garland played at an all -star caliber before Donovan Mitchell got here. Then he arguably had a better season when Donovan Mitchell got here his first year and then had to deal with a whole lot last season, right? But when it comes to the playoffs, that’s a different story.

He was struggling in both of the years. He wasn’t doing what he was called upon to do. Has he grown? Has he matured? Is he going to still play with this lack of days ago attitude? Is he still going to do all these things that when at the beginning of season, even before the injuries, we weren’t worried about his play because of the amount of turnovers that we kept seeing in each game. That’s something that I’m also worried about when it comes to this next season. If he’s going to keep playing as not, I don’t want to use the word lazy, but

lighthearted and and not as focused or decision oriented when it comes to handling the ball as the point of attack and all those different things because you are the maestro you are the head of the snake if you have to Take over at any point and can’t be like, well, you’ve had three four turnovers now we’re gonna give you the ball to Do your own thing. That’s not how this is gonna work this team relies on Darius to play at a high standard consistently and

for this team to take the next steps and be able to go where it needs to, Darius Garland has to play to that level and he simply has not thus far. So I understand the argument of why his rating is lower, all these different things, why he’s been criticized, all these different things by fans, why they can’t count on him, but you have to give him another shot. You have to. Why? He’s your team’s point guard, one. Two, it’s another season, another year with a very

Ethan Sands (31:39.104)

very different offensive minded coach who is going to be able to put them in different positions to be successful.

Jimmy Watkins (31:50.128)

Can I give another reason why, potentially? This is, we’re getting real deep on a video game rating here, but.

Ethan Sands (31:52.835)

Go ahead.

Jimmy Watkins (31:58.788)

I think, again, think opposing GMs who may have wanted to trade for Darius Garland six months ago and would have thought, wow, Darius Garland wants to be traded. I’d like to be in the Darius Garland business. Watched the second half of last season, watched the playoffs and thought, nevermind, or nevermind at the price that I originally would have paid for him or the way I originally valued him. I wonder legitimately, did Darius Garland

I’m just supposed to believe these trade rumors, these trade request rumors came from thin air when they were coming from people pretty close to Darius. I don’t buy that. I’m wondering, did Darius Garland say, no, I’m a cav for life. I love playing basketball with Donovan Mitchell. We know they like each other. No one’s saying they don’t like each other. I think there’s always been the question of do they love playing basketball with each other? I don’t know. Did Darius come and say, Nick’s all those reports. I love it here or?

the Cavs come to him and say, hey man, market’s pretty cold for you out there. We don’t love the return. Maybe the best thing for both of us going forward, including for your desire to play somewhere else, have your own team at some point, is for you to just run it back, look way better, and then maybe it works out and you and Donovan have a beautiful partnership, or maybe you still don’t like it here, but you play better.

And then we can do a more workable trade. So can you help me help you out? Basically, I wonder if that’s if that happened this summer.

Ethan Sands (33:36.12)

I like that thought. mean, it’s definitely something because there were people on teams and GMs that came to the Cavs and were like, hey, we’re willing to give you this. We understand that the market for Darius is a little lower than it used to be. It’s lower than he was when it was an all -star caliber guy. He was lower than all those different things. But we are still willing to go and get him. I think that itself shows that he has value in this league.

It shows that there are teams that feel like they can win with him, grow with him, create an organization, even teams that were willing to build around Darius in a trade package, right? And that’s how you understand what he means to this team, the value that he has to the organization and how hard it would have been to guard Darius Garland if you give him away, right?

Because we talk about the situation with Isaac Kikoro, him potentially more than likely going to sign his qualifying offer, come back, play for one year, and then become an unrestricted free agent unless getting traded at the trade deadline, whatever.

Jimmy Watkins (34:42.106)

You who needs a vacation more than Chris? Isaac Kikoro’s agent.

Ethan Sands (34:44.398)

Isaac’s been posting not well. He’s been trying to be silent Isaac’s been trying to post him not himself But he’s had little pictures and posts on around the internet about him doing stuff workouts and stuff, too. So Hey, man, think he’s trying to show to other teams. It’s like hey, I’m still working if you want me but it feels like you might need to go a different direction for now

Jimmy Watkins (34:48.368)

Come on, man, negotiating away.

Jimmy Watkins (35:15.664)

Can I, he’s just on the phone, middle of August. Can I get an offer sheet? Everyone’s in Europe. All the GMs are on vacation. Please, can I get an offer sheet? Anybody?

Ethan Sands (35:26.774)

Everybody’s like, Isaac, stop calling me, man. We know you’re going to sign the qualifying. Talk to me after this year, after you have a half decent year. Like that’s another situation where it’s like, hey, let me help you help you help us help you by signing this qualifying and then going ahead and having this last season, this last go around with us and figuring out what you’re going to do next year. Because when you come become an unrestricted free agent, that’s a different conversation. I just think.

There are and back to the Darius Garland point there there are doubters there are skeptics and there’s reason for them to be skeptical of Darius based on the season that he had last year and I’m read some of them because some of them are from our subtexters and it comes down to What they saw last year and all of these things, right? So I talked to them about the 75 rating in NBA 2k and what they said a couple of them said

Based on last year, 75 is about right, inconsistent on offense, assist to turnovers, and a liability on defense, right? The next one says,

I mean that’s not too low. Too many turnovers, not efficient off ball and doesn’t shoot enough threes. I don’t have time to rank him because he’s D low. He needs to be effing traded. I hate him until further notice. Then next one says…

Jimmy Watkins (36:57.83)

Alright guys, come on.

Ethan Sands (37:00.302)

And then and then we get I got a book to read to you, but I’m not gonna do that to you because there’s definitely Not enough time for that But it basically says I think that it’s a fair based off his performance last season where if I couldn’t catch a game live Checking the box score later. I expected about 15 points and five to eight turnovers for a while It will be interesting to see how he performs this year and more importantly what he does in the playoffs

If he performs well in the regular season but disappears in the playoffs, there will be questions and decisions to be asked and made. And then the last two says he chokes when it matters. Wait room isn’t going to fix that. And just about Evan Mobley’s writing as well. I think obviously, like I said, there are

Jimmy Watkins (37:52.102)

This is what I’m saying, man. 2K is putting numbers to real sentiments. there’s, again, maybe it’s a little too low. He’s 81, all right? He’s 81 overall, 75th best in the game. Like that’s 82. Okay. Yeah, that’s probably a little low for my taste, but like this is not coming out of nowhere. we have, 2K can point to a lot of data points that suggest, look, this guy needed to be knocked down a peg.

Ethan Sands (37:57.472)

No

Ethan Sands (38:03.694)

82, 82, 80, 75, yeah.

Ethan Sands (38:25.1)

Yeah, and I just think it’s very weird because, well, it’s not very weird, but I just think it’s interesting because there are other organizations that have put together their overalls, right? Like the Ringer. The Ringer has Garland ranked 54th overall entering this next season, and Hoops Hype has him at 67th. I think these are more, like, understandable. I think 75th is, like, just way too high.

for Darius Garland when it comes to what he’s done in his resume, like to drop five overall rating points, it takes a lot to do that, right? But I think we’re still talking about this as a video game. And I think we need to finish up talking about this as the fact is that there are doubters for Darius Garland. There are rumors about Darius Garland. There’s all these things being said, but the only person

that can put an end to them, that can silence them, that can decipher them, is Darius Garland with his play or with what he says, right? Him saying to Chris during summer league that he didn’t want to get traded, that dispelled a lot of rumors, right? His play is the next thing to come, the next domino to fall as we’ve been saying this whole off season when it comes to contracts and all that stuff. So I’m gonna use that again.

The next domino to fall is whether or not Darius Garland is going to be able to use his body, his strength, his skill, all of those things to play to the level that we’ve seen him do in the past. But Jimmy, to end this podcast, what’s your take for Darius Garland on what he’s going to be able to do this season and if he’s going to be able to have another bounce back year?

Jimmy Watkins (40:15.554)

I’m betting on a big bounce back here from Darius Garland. think the points per game is going to go up. The decision making is going to improve. We’re going to check a lot of boxes that we want to see. Really the question for me at this point with Darius Garland, are you playoff guy or no? That’s basically what it is. Can you be the Jalen Brown to Donovan Mitchell’s Jason Tatum? And by the way, the…

The threshold that those two have to meet as a guard tandem is much higher than Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum have to meet. I’ve said it before on this podcast, basketball is for tall people. Tall people win finals MVPs. I’d been saying the stat all summer, since, I think since Tony Parker in 2007, Steph Curry is like the only…

Finals MVP, 6 -5 -0, since 2000, it’s like Dwayne Wade, Tony Parker, Steph Curry. Tall people, you need tall people to win basketball games, or you need like a transcendent guard. And the Cavs are trying to build, like their offense is driven by two dudes who are 6 -1, 6 -2. So you have to up your game in the playoffs, which guards tend to have trouble doing because the game is more physical.

And Darius Garland has not been doing that in the postseason the last two years. You have to, you have to, again, we’re talking conference finalists. We’re talking about matching up with Tatum and Brown. We’re talking about Giannis. We’re talking about Giannis and Damian Lillard, proven stamped guys. We’re talking about now Joel Embiid, Paul George, Tyrese Maxey, however you want to order those guys. You got to go to, you know, get a war with those guys. Like Donovan’s, plant pencil Donovan for 25 to 30.

We gotta be able to do the same for Darius Garland in games that really matter. That’s what it is for me. think again, reps, getting the strength back, having a normal run up to the season will take care of a lot of the frustrations that people are lobbing at Darius right now, which again, you have a right to be frustrated as a max player. But I think that there’ll be some course correction on both his rating and public perception until we get to the playoffs. And then I don’t really know what to think because I haven’t seen it yet.

Ethan Sands (42:44.494)

Transcending guard right and we’ve talked about the 2k rating so far Donovan Mitchell’s rating. I think he’s supposed to be in 93 I’m waiting to see where he’s ranked in this list because that’ll be something that’s interesting We talked about that on the last podcast and I had him in my top 20 But trying to see how accurate that is when it comes to the 2k ratings and maybe that’ll tell us how accurate the 75 is for Darius Garland But with that being said

That’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. But remember to become a Cavs Insider and interact with Chris, me, and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. When the next rankings get released, I will let you know, we will all let you know, and we can argue on there as well, or you can simply agree. But to get this information, sign up for a 14 -day free trial or…

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